Video Infoblog; Norman Finkelstein DESTROYS Jake Tapper and Hillary on Gaza
Transcript
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Hillary Clinton's appearance on The View and I thought it was important to walk through this one because I do think it
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raises so many of the arguments that are being used to desensitize the public to
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the ongoing genocide and to provide cover for the American government and
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its complic complicity with Israel's actions I had more time I had more time
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to contemplate the Jake Tapper one so maybe we can do parts of one and parts
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of the other we do know that innocent civilians in Gaza continue to be killed by Israeli strikes and the humanitarian
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crisis in Gaza is growing increasingly dire thousands of people around the world are protesting and calling for a
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ceasefire in Washington DC in Paris in Berlin protesters are crying out about
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the humanitarian crisis the loss of life the suffering of so many innocent civilians this morning
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red handprints could still be seen on the White House fence SLE from protesters over the weekend trying to
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tell President Biden that the US has the blood on its hands of innocent lives and
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how can you not be affected by these horrific images we're seeing out of Gaza children buddy children's bodies family
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starving little if any Medical Care Homes destroyed the Israel Defense
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Forces insist they're targeting only Hamas which hides and fire rockets at Israel from among the Palestinian people
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from among civilians homes but the Secretary General of Amnesty International told CNN that Israel has
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waged a quote campaign of violations of international law something must happen
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she said so that we alleviate the suffering of the people of Gaza unquote Israel
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insists that it's only targeting
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Hamas it's not insisting on that Israel is insisting that it's
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targeting everybody in Gaza it's not as if it's saying there'll be
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no water no fuel no food no electricity just for
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Hamas it's targeting and they're very straightforward about it they're
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targeting everybody in Gaza and they are unabashedly targeting
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everybody um defense minister gallon October 9th just two days after we're
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imposing a Complete Siege in the city of Gaza there will be no electricity no food no water no fuel everything is
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closed we are fighting Human animals and we are acting
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accordingly the person who heads the administration in the occupied
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territories he said Hamas became Isis and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating
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instead of being horrified human beasts are dealt with
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accordingly Israel has imposed a total block on Gaza no electricity no water
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just damage you wanted hell you will get
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hell that's not targeting Hamas that's targeting the whole population of Gaza
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straight from the horse's mouth we don't have to infer it from the carpet boming
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of Gaza they announ they're ing what they're doing something that has concerned us
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greatly something that we have wondered about ever since Hamas brutally attacked
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so many Israeli civilians on October 7th is what exactly did Hamas think the
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Israeli military would do in response to that did they not anticipate that Israel
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would retaliate did they not anticipate IL Israel would retaliate in a way that
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would cause innocent and Palestinians in Gaza to die especially given the fact
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that as has been established by Israeli intelligence us intelligence and journalists who have visited Gaza the
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fact that Hamas embeds within the Palestinian population what did they think would
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happen he says what did you expect Israel to
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do there's another question what did you expect the people
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of Gaza to do after being incarcerated in a concentration camp for 20
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years I know what you wanted them to do you wanted them to just languish and
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die but did you not really expect that if they had the
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opportunity or made the opportunity that they would attempt to
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do something and then there's the logic
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if you look at World War II every time the partisans the
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resistance killed a major Nazi officer the Nazis retaliated in
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very bloody ways the most famous of the killings was when the Czech partisans
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killed uh Reinhardt hydris what did the Nazis do they went
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into the village of Le leiche and flattened it and killed every
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male above the age of 14 so there you have Jake
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Tapper when there are reports of the leveling of
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leich and the killing of every man
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and boy over the age of 14s there comes Jake pepper from Radio Berlin and he
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says what did you expect the Nazis to do they
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killed Reinhard hydis what did you expect them to
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do the logic of his argument is the logic of his argument
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is the people of Gaza should do nothing because if they do
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anything Israel is going to retaliate what did you expect them to do the
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people of Gaza in 2018 beginning March 30th
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2018 they tried nonviolence they marched non-violently to the
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fence what Israel do it targeted children targeted Medics targeted
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journalists and targeted people with physical disabilities people on crutches and in wheelchairs and then it comes
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long Jake Tapper well they were approaching the the fence in Gaza what
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did you expect the Israelis to do that's his that's his Logic the logic is they
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should do nothing they should just languish and die because if they do
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anything what do you expect Israel to do you made this point so compellingly in
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your uh debate conversation with Eli Eli Lake was it uh where you when confronted
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with this kind of line of reasoning talked about the Warsaw Ghetto and he he was more specifically asking you about
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well didn't they understand the futility of what they were going to do and that combined with the obvious retribution
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wasn't that irresponsible of them to put their own people in the crossfires and you raised the question of whether
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anyone would similarly say that people in the wara ghetto Uprising should not
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have at least tried even if they were obviously going up against surmountable odds well the only thing as a as a
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factual matter the only thing the uprising in the waro ghetto achieved you
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know it's the only thing it achieved it catalyzed the destruction of Warsaw and the deportation of the surviving people
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in G surv surviving people in the was was ghetto to M their concentration camp
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that's all it accomplished there was never a possibility that the Jewish fighting organization was going to
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defeat the Nazis the Red Army could barely defeat the Nazis so we're talking about a handful of people with less than
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a handful of weapons but do you ever hear anyone saying what did you expect
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the Jewish fighting organization what do you expect the Nazis to do yeah they went in they leveled Warsaw and deported
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everyone to a concentration camp so there is Jake Tapper saying well what
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did you expect the Nazis to do when the Jewish fighting organization went into
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Rev oh yes that's exactly what you expect the Nazis to do absolutely correct and it was exactly correct that
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the Nazis would level the village of licha after the assassination of
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Reinhardt hydris but does that does that make it
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right he he also skips over the proportionality argument I mean even if
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I were to accept which I clearly do not but even if I were to accept that Israel
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had a quote unquote right to retaliate to as part of its quote unquote right to defense the idea you know what is that
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number Jake Tapper none of these people are willing to ask this answer this question I asked V ramaswami on Rising a couple of weeks ago this question tell
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me what the number is okay 1,400 Israelis killed on October 7th you want
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to double it yeah sure whatever give them the most generous number but what do you want to do double it triple it
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quadruple it I asked this to reos Swami I said there's 2.3 million people in Gaza are is this is allowed to kill
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every single one of them as part of its right to defend itself and then everybody asks acts as though I'm asking an a reasonable question like that's an
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exaggeration like it's inappropriate to even contemplate that Israel would kill everybody in Gaza but what's the line
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what's the difference between saying I'm going to kill 10,000 people half of which are children in retaliation for
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Hamas killing 1,400 people and taking it to its natural consequence so when you
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when you say well didn't you expect retaliation you there's retaliation and there's retaliation did did anyone
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actually expect I I totally agree with that I mean I I that's the what has
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passed through my head if you're saying retaliation then the maximum would seem
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to be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but even Omar bartov in the
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times said today it's already five times yeah the pales the number of
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Palestinians killed as Israeli killed um but the other side to me is um the fact
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that you would expect them to react that way doesn't mean it was right for them to react right kind of sad
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admission between between acknowledging yeah those that's the Israelis I know
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the Israelis that's EXA exactly how they act but that doesn't mean that it's
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right or it's permissible right and then the next part
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is he says well what's Israel to do Hamas is embedding itself among the
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Palestinians well the first thing to say is we've already said it they're not attacking Hamas they're
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very very clear about that they're attacking all of Gaza so whether Hamas is embedding itself among Palestinians
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or they're not embedding themselves among Palestinians Israel would be using
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the same tactic indiscriminate targeting of the civilian or the total population
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of Gaza Hamas is an irrelevancy they're not attacking Hamas they're not trying
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to defeat Hamas if they do it'll just be by chance by an accident right now
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they're targeting the entire population of Gaza by open admission number
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two this claim that Hamas is using the population human Shields now I don't
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want which is implicit in the embedding they're purposely embedding themselves among the civilian
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population I don't want to bore your listeners with the technicalities of
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international law H uh human shielding is what's
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called a term of art it's not a technical term which has been codified
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into law it basically means the conscription of
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civilians either to protect combatants or to protect a military site that's
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basically what is meant by human shielding if you take the most
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extensive um investigation of human shielding in the case of Hamas occurs
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after operation castled in 2008 2009 from December 26 2008 to January 17
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2009 human rights what excuse me Amnesty International it does a very exhaustive
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report an operation castled it was called 22 days of death and
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destruction it found no evidence that Hamas was engaged in human shielding it's just not true this is a factual
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question now there's a separate question it's called taking all these ible
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precautions when in a civilian area that is to say according to the laws of war
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which called International humanitarian law IHL that if you are firing from a
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civilian area you have to take all feasible
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precautions so as not to endanger civilians and there it has
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occasionally been the case that Hamas has been accused of not taking all
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feasible precautions obviously if you're living in the most
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densely populated place in God's Earth it's very hard to take all feasible
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precautions so that's one side of the equation but if you look at all the
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human rights supports all of them going back to operation defensive shield in
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2002 two Israel always takes human shield
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Palestinians as human Shields that's just a standard practice so you have
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scenes of Israelis they take over a building they put the Palestinians in
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the window and they fire from behind the Palestinians they have tank imp
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placements and they drag Palestinians to surround the tank placements this isn't
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my imagination there is a voluminous human rights um public hum voluminous number
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of Human Rights Publications which document yes there's
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a lot of human shielding going on there but it's all going on by Israel that's
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all vanished that's all vanished air airbrushed from the commentary on
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the Israeli mowings of the lawn in Gaza well
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let's push down a little further because Jake tabber starts to make a little bit of a more even a more sophisticated in a
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mavan in an evil way argument about hamas's responsibility here that I think
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it's worth engaging with yeah it turns out that a Saudi journalist asked a
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spokesman for Hamas that very question his response was quite telling in terms
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of hamas's concerns about Palestinian
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lives dear sister nations are not easily liberated the Russians sacrificed 30
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million people in World War II in order to liberate it from Hitler's attack the Vietnamese sacrificed 3.5 million people
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until they defeated the Americans Afghanistan sacrificed millions of Martyrs to defeat USSR and then the US
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the Algerian people sacrificed 6 million Martyrs over 130 years the Palestinian
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people are just like any other Nation no nation is liberated without
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sacrifices no nation is liberated without sacrifices not exactly an expression of
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regret for innocent Palestinian deaths so Jake Tapper takes that
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statement and interprets it as uh Palestinians or Hamas doesn't care about its own
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people how would you make of that framing yeah I
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interpret that as a factual account of the of historical events he's correct it
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took uh 27 million Russian people their lives in order to defeat
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the Nazis that's just a fact does that mean that Stalin or any
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of the Soviet leaders was indifferent to the deaths of of their
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people does it mean that the Vietnamese leadership was
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indifferent to the deaths he gave the figure uh Mash KH M gave the figure of
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3.5 million of Vietnamese were killed yeah that's a ballpark figure which is
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it's it's a plausible figure uh 3.5 million I think it's a little bit less
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uh the number is usually give given are uh a million leosan a half million
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cambodians and uh two million Vietnamese were killed by the United States during
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the indo-china wars the fact that he's saying that he
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can't be Hamas can't
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be uh can't not resist
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on the grounds that large numbers of people are going to die is in effect to
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say the Russians shouldn't have resisted the Nazis the Viet the Vietnamese
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shouldn't have resisted the Americans the alerian shouldn't resist Russia right exactly because a lot of people
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are going to die yeah that's just a factual reality but it doesn't follow
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from that that say zalinski is indifferent to the deaths of ukrainians
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in the course of the war yeah I thought that was one of the more bad faith arguments that uh Tapper
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makes in this but wait wait there's more right let's keep watching a journalist
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from Russia Today a Russian State media Outlet asked Musa Abu marzuk from the
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Hamas political Bureau quote you have built 500 kilometers of tunnels in Gaza
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why haven't you built bomb shelters where Palestinian civilians can hide
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during bombardment and here's how Hamas
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responded we have built the tunnels because we have no other way of protecting ourselves from being targeted and
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killed these tunnels are meant to protect us from the airplanes we are fighting from inside
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the tunnels everybody knows that 75% of the
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people in the Gaza Strip are refugees and it is the responsibility of
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the United Nations to protect them if the United
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States would send 3.8 billion dollar in Aid to Hamas for its
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military then they would have money left over to build bomb
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shelters now you might find what I just said factious but actually it's closer to the
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law international law than what Jake Tapper had to say because under
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international law an occupied people have the right to use force and violence
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in order to end an illegal occupation under international law and
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occupying power does not have the right to use force in
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order to preserve an illegal occupation so under international law
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the $30 billion do that Barack Obama gave to Israel over a 10-year period
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under the law the $30 billion should have been given to Hamas because they're
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resisting an IL legal occupation that's the law you see it sounds funny it
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almost sounds like I'm trying to score a debater point no under international law
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there is nothing barring a foreign power nothing in the law barring a foreign
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power from assisting a people engaged in a war of
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self-determination so Obama president Obama would have been completely in the
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right legally to allocate 30 billion over a
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10-year period to assisting the Palestinians in their struggle for
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self-determination however international law does bar an occupying power from
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using Force to deny a people the right to
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self-determination so if Jake Tapper is so upset by the fact that
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Hamas is devoting resources to building tunnels which are used for military
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purposes that we can agree on if he's so upset about that instead of building bomb shelters there's a very simple
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solution let the United States pay for building the tunnels which is illegal
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under international law and then Hamas will have resources left over to build
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the bomb shelters now I would like to just get to what's at bottom in
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arguments like that c can I just add one thing before we shift at all I I I do
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think one there's this weird admission that well Hamas is underground so every bomb you're throwing at Gaza that's not
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affecting the tunnels is purely civilian casualties you know that two there's all of this discourse about how Hamas is
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hiding near in this hospital and Hamas is hiding the school there was an Israeli official just today I believe
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who said that um you know Hamas is in the UN and so you're allowed to bomb the UN who said journalists were complicit
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with Hamas and so you're allowed to bomb journalists I mean Israel isn't even really arguing that they're not targeting that that basically there are
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no civilians that they are converting civilians into bombable targets and that these are not people who are
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accommodated by Hamas so if you if you have this idea that like people in safe
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zones are open for bombing like hospitals and refugee camps then what's to stop Israel from targeting the bomb
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shelter because they're just going to say Hamas was in the bomb shelter you can't build a bomb shelter because it's
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Gonna Keep Hamas safe well that's exactly okay I'd like you to just restate that argument I want
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to just get absolutely clear in my head because I can then use it in the future uh so just
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restate the argument so Israel is already saying that zones that are supposed to be safe zones for civilians
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are not in fact uh uh civilian zones that they've been infiltrated by Hamas
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that's hospitals that's un camps un schools refugee camps and the like so why should anybody take their word take
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Jake tapper's word for the idea that if there were a bomb shelter it too wouldn't become a Target under the
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justification that Hamas is using the bomb the bomb shelter exactly
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and um or that that bomb shelter shouldn't be built in the first place assuming
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that there's a bomb shelter that's impenetrable to bombs that the the bomb shelter shouldn't be built in the first place because it would be used as a
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refuge for Hamas exactly just uh I want to just get back to the point but the
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point you just made so Israel is pres presenting all of these very
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sophisticated images to prove that there is a Hamas command and control center
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under Al shifa hospital and at every every military operation they target
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alifa there's a very simple way to answer that question there are 60,000 people in
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alifa hospital you just send an inspectors show us where this command
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and control center is you say you have the exact images you know exactly where they are let's see it nobody even asks
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the question why aren't they just sending in inspectors to check whether
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the hospital is being used as a command and control center because everybody knows it's
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nonsense they Sayed every single one of their operations alifa the Hamas has the
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command and control center in uh in alif in the in the
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basement uh in any event I want to just get back to the the logic of this bomb
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shelter argument the argument is Gaza is a poor place about that nobody's going
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to argue okay so the argument is Hamas is uh investing all these
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resources in the uh tunnels which it could have used for civilian purposes it
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could have built bomb shelters it could have been a pool it could have built an amusement park it could have built a
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highrise here and a highrise here but they're using it for tunnels so what's
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the logic the logic is any
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resources Hamas invests in military
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resistance becomes a subtraction from resources that could
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have been invested from the for the civilians and given that it's a very
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poor place the bottom line is there won't be a
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resistance because you're you you will by virtue of the poverty of the place
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have to invest all your resources in the
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civilian infrastructure uh and so forth so what
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they're really saying is why is Hamas resisting right and I
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would that's such a good point so that's what they don't like that that's such a
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good point and it is I will say hearing Americans arguing that point it's pretty
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rich given the state of our own domestic population say now you we all complain
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about a bloated military budget bigger than the
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next nine combined including Russia and China and all of our biggest enemies
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right but and you say in the face of the fact that that there are all these homeless
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people correct why isn't the money being used for the homeless rather than using
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it for a bloated budget but it's a very rare person who would say that unless all of
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the people's needs are met we shouldn't invest one cent in the
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military even the most but you recognize your yes you
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recognize that that would be considered a very extreme argument right but that's
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exactly what's being said about Hamas that if there are any civilian needs
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that go unmet then it's illegitimate for them to invest money in these
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tunnels well then that just means you don't want them to resist you don't
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think they should have the option to resist and International law doesn't say
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that international law says they have the right to use Armed Force in a
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struggle for self-determination and the other thing is I don't see it as Jake tapper's place
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to make that criticism if the people of Gaza made that criticism as in why are
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you investing in tunnels and not our bond shelters there's an argument there
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if they make the criticism but so far as I know as critical as the people of Gaza
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have become of Hamas because there has been a lot of corruption and repression no question about that I'm not aware of
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any significant actually I'm not aware of any insignificant but any significant
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opposition to the building of the tunnels because they're perfectly aware
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that if they don't do something this thing is going to go on through eternity yeah yeah all right let's push
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on a little bit a little bit more shall we the Biden Administration would argue that a pause allowing innocent
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Palestinians to flee and allowing humanitarian supplies to get into Gaza that that's one thing but that stopping
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the Israeli campaign against Hamas which is what a ceasefire would be stopping it would be another here's how former
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Secretary of State Hillary Clinton put it at an event at the baker Institute people who are calling for a
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ceasefire now do not understand Hamas that is not possible it would be such a
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gift to Hamas because they would spend whatever time there was a ceasefire in effect rebuilding their uh armaments you
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know creating stronger positions to be able to fend off uh an eventual um
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assault by the Israelis but you know don't don't take her word for it gazi hammad a member of
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hamas's political Bureau told Lebanese TV that the AL AXA flood that's what
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Hamas called the October 7th attack this is just the first time and
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there will be a second a third a fourth because we have the determination the resolve and the capabilities to fight
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will we have to pay a price yes and we are ready to pay it we are called a
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nation of Martyrs and we are proud to sacrifice Martyrs so Hamas which is the government
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of Gaza based on their own words a they think the loss of Palestinian civilian
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lives is just the cost of Liberation B they think that even though they're the
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government of Gaza it's not their responsibility to protect Palestinian civilians the tunnels are for themselves
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for fighting not for civilians and C they're determined to continue attacking
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Israel the same way they did on October 7th over and over and over based on what
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they say so for these reasons Israel says we can't have a ceasefire listen to
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what they say so they're pushing forward with their ground incursion into Gaza first of all I think there's a common
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expression a common place expression wherever there is oppression there is resistance not a particularly original
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idea so when marzuk says there's going to be another and another and another uh
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action like this well there was another and another and another slave revolt not
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altogether Sho you know shocking Revelation that people who are oppressed
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will continue to resist but then he takes offense at marzuk saying that we're a
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nation of Martyrs okay and that's supposed to conjure up this image of of
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fanatical jihadis suicide bombers suicide bombers
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and the rest so allow me just to read the passage okay the British Empire and the
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French Republic linked together in their cause and in their need will defend to
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the death will defend to the death their native
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soil aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their
34:29
strength even though large tracks of Europe and many old and famous
34:36
states have fallen or may fall into the grip of the gestapo and all the odious
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apparatus of Nazi rule we shall not flag or
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fail we shall go on until the end this
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island or large part of it even if it were subjugated and starving even then we
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would continue but when Winston Churchill says that that's
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heroic it's in all the history books we shall go on till the end even if we're
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subjugated or starving but when marzuk says we are
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willing to sacrifice we are nation of M moders we will do what it
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takes to free ourselves to emancipate ourselves to break out of this
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concentration camp it suddenly becomes Sinister fanatical Jihadi
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talk our American history what's one of the most famous lines from the American Revolution Give me liberty or give me
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death isn't that a martyr isn't that a martyr and and we and that's supposed to
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be exemplary of the uh of the standard to
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which we should all AR rise Give me liberty or give me death how is that different than what marzuk said
